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| I won't paint the Belial's face. Will have it cast in heavy shadows. Perhaps tip of his nose, some upper lip, more lower lip and chin will be painted. I'm not a fan of 40k models without helmets. |
As my buddies know I hate the Imperium. Specifically Space Marines. It seems the rules are written to favour of them more than any other army. Marines get plenty of love where the Xenos get the backhanding.
I believe in codex creep. Codex creep occurs when newer codexes become slightly more powerful than previously released codexes. I also believe most people don't know how to use an army to its full effectiveness.
I believe codexes can be balanced. Also believe that you can judge one codex against another because every model and piece of wargear costs points. That is the great equalizer. Points. It's not about comparing apples to oranges. It's about comparing Granny Smith Apples to Red Apples. Or Honey Crisp Apple to a Crabapple from the tree in your yard that an insect burrowed through.
One example regarding codex creep and favouritism towards Space Marines and points is:
5th ed Space Marines codex pg 134 4 marines and 1 sergeant are 90 points. You may buy five addition marines for 16 points each. So a squad of 10 marines cost 170 points.
4th ed Eldar codex pg 64 squad of 10-20 Guardians at 8 points a model.
Now some will argue that the 10 points for the first five marines is for the sergeant which has +1 to A and Ld. Others may say well you can buy a Warlock for the Guardians. You're paying 25 points for 4++, invulnerable, +1 to WS & BS. Way I understand their point is it's 5 pts to increase characteristic by 1 and 15 points to make a 5+ a 4++ save.
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| 6th ed Dark Angels codex pg 105. First thing I looked up in the Dark Angels codex was the flyers. Which I saw in their type they were not Flyer, Hover. They were just Flyer. Which I deeply respect. They aren't performing as much codex creep yet. I have yet to read the book to make a final judgment. |
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| 40k6 mini-rule book pg 135. Compare Dark Angels flyers to the "can't keep it up" Stormraven which is a Flyer, Hover. |
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| 40k6 mini-rule book pg 135. Nevermind Imperial Guard also having a Flyer, Hover. It seems the Imperium gets all the best toys. I will bet anyone the next Xenos codex that their flyers won't be Flyer, Hover. The flyer will only be Flyer. Dark Eldar nope, Orc nope. Same will be for Tau and Eldar. The Void Raven Bomber won't be Flyer, Hover either. That special type is for Imperium only vehicles. Frankly it pisses me off. |
One of my favourite codex creep is the Land Raider.
3rd Space Marines Codex pg 15 Land Raider pts 250.
4th Space Marines Codex pg 40 Land Raider pts 250 Power of Machine Spirit has BS 2. Can operate one weapon per turn as long as the vehicle has moved no more than 6".
5th Space Marines Codex pg 142 Land Raider pts 250 Power of Machine Spirit. Tank BS 4. Can fire one more weapon than would normally be permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons, subject to the normal rules for shooting.
You'll notice that the Land Raider remained same price across three different editions while only getting better.
By comparison here are two examples of Eldar "codex creep" if one can call it that.
3rd Eldar Codex pg 34 Pulse Laser R 48 S 8 Ap 2 Heavy d3. Falcon pts 120 Bright Lance 35 pts R 36 S 8 Ap 2 Assault 1
4th Eldar Codex pg 68 Pulse Laser R 48 S 8 Ap 2 Heavy 2. Falcon pts 115 Bright Lance 30 pts R 36 S 8 Ap 2 Heavy 1, Lance
Points are dropping. Not by much. Sadly the Eldar codex is not experiencing the same creep as Marines. I wonder why. Seriously I wonder why.
3rd Eldar Codex pg 34 Starcannon R 36 S 6 Ap 2 Heavy 3. War Walker pts 30, Energy Field vs ranged attacks that hit the front of the walker with a weapon that has greater than S 8 is treated as 8 and never roll more than +1D6 for armour penetration (example: melta), Starcannon 35 pts.
4th Eldar Codex pg 68 Starcannon R 36 S 6 Ap2 Heavy 2. War Walker pts 30, doesn't have special shield like in 3rd ed, Starcannon 25 pts.
Looking at War Walkers we have a huge discrepancy with points. They remain the same price while losing a favourable advantage 3rd ed War Walker had. Starcannon can arguably be a better point cost in 4th. Again, sadly the codex creep that affected Space Marines is not affecting Eldar. Why, GW?
These are just a few comparisons and no where near exhaustive as it only covers five different codexes across three editions. I only looked up those three: Land Raider, Falcon and War Walker. I didn't go through the codex to find which would be the worst example. I'm sure it goes both ways. I just don't see Space Marines getting the shaft like Xenos. It seems from reading the codexes across multiple editions that Imperium keeps getting better, see Land Raider above for one example, and Xenos get worst. To be fair I wanted to pull out 2nd ed codexes but did not because they predate the Force Org Chart. For a full comparison I would have to go through every unit across all past and present editions.
Now some may say you can't compare one edition against another. I politely disagree. We have to because some players use 4th ed codexes in 6th ed games. Tau anyone? or Eldar. How about Orcs?
The weights and measures that make everything balanced across the editions are Points. Now if codexes that were editions olde received a handicap say 150 pts if your using 5th ed codex. 300 pts for 4th ed. 450 pts for 3rd, Black Templars or Sisters anyone? Things might start evening out. That's one thing us 40k'ers are doing today while looking at the new 6th ed Dark Angels codex. In fact first thing that Suijin brought up last night after purchasing the codex was Scout squad costing 60 pts. Compared to 120 pts for sisters. Scouts 6th ed Dark Angels pg 97 have Scout, Move Through Cover, Inflitrate and several others. Sisters don't get that. Who's being racked over the coals? I maybe misremembering the exact points he mentioned. His point was Sisters troops cost more and didn't have nearly that many Special Rules. Unless some think Faith power is worth all those points....
I close this post and codex creep with one last point.
If you don't think codex creep isn't real and points aren't the balancing force in the game. I suggested you compare 3rd ed Daemonhunters to 5th ed Grey Knights.
slainte mhath
p.s. I hate Space Marines. As the saying goes. If you can't beat them....
p.s.s. I could pull a Malcom Reynolds and say "I have no need to beat you. I just want to on my way." Frankly he's a better man than I.
Agreed, re codex creep. I love the DA. They are my first and favored legion. However I have dabbled in Necrons - which are about as forgiving a xenos race as can be for some one stepping away from marines - and Dark Eldar, which have one hell of a different aesthetic and can be a bit of a glass hammer, but damn those new minis look cool. Trying new armies makes you a better player - not me though, i suck equally in all my gaming. Oh well at least my minis look good dying ;)
ReplyDeleteZab, we are on the same wave length /prost. I believe every new player to 40k should start with a xenos army then if they want move to Space Marines if they want.
DeleteThe Xenos armies do have great figures. Especially the Dark Eldar. Love those Talos Paint Engines. So beautiful. I am also not a very skilled table top player but I'll be damned if 90% of the others players have a better painted army than mine. Those that try get praise. Those that are better, I make sure they know it.
Dark Angels are also my first and favourite Chapter. Can't even consider playing a different Space Marine army.
On the subject of Codex creep, let me bring you back to Black Templars. You seem to have highlighted what Imperium/Space Marine players have gained, but consider also what they have lost. To look solely at the wargear section of my BT codex, I see a few upgrades which are fairly OP. (In alphabetical order)
ReplyDeleteAuspex - Cheaper then a Tau Blacksun filter, and lets you have an additional round of shooting at any enemy unit Infiltrating within 4D6"
Bionics - Feel no Pain (6+) for the price of a Meltabomb? Not bad, and can be useful in the right situation.
Upgrading a Weapon to Master-Crafted - Considering the only MC weapons we see these days are for Special Characters, this is something that DIY characters are missing.
Terminator Honours - +1 Atk, and a boast to Ld-9, isn't something to be sniffed at. It certainly makes Sword Brethran better at what they do (Provided you're actually using them for CC)
And you seem to have forgotten that BT players can add PotMS onto their Predators. And with the special rule being turned to a Core Rulebook rule, which over-writes all previous versions, this upgrade shouldn't be forgotten.
A final 0-1 piece of wargear I'd like to point out is the Adamantium Mantle. Practically confering Eternal Warrior to the wearer. its only downside is its price. This is another piece of wargeat that can be chosen to add character to, well, a character.
I agree the Pts are the balancing element of the game, but that just emphazises the problem of Overpriced/underpower and underpriced/overpowered units all the more obvious.
I'm kinda filled for anything Space Marine, what with being spoiled with the Chaos Marine codex. I've yet to fully wrap my head around that before I even think about letting my mind wonder into thinking about buying the Dark Angels' codex.
Thats just my two cents. :P
Those are great two cents.
DeleteI would never say that marines didn't lose anything. There are plenty of things they lost. So have the xenos. We'll Be Back 4+ to Reanimation Protocols 5+.
I'm comfortable with PotMS, in next lexicon thanks, Narric, being in the core rules. Please have the Land Raider points reflect that.
Speaking of which. Necron warriors with from 18pts to 13pts. They lost a Sv point and point in We'll Be Back. Dark Angels troops 15pts now they are 14 pts for the same stat line. All Terminators now have 2 A base. Honours is figured into the point cost. To minimize stress I won't bother looking up cost before and after.
Thanks for your two cents, Narric!
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Delete(realizedI had a lot of spelling mistakes ;p)
DeleteI think Necrons are not as screwed over as you (and maybe others) think. Yes they've lost entire rules, or their rules aren't as strong as they used to be, but considering the amount of diversity you can bring with Necrons, compared to their last incarnation, is it really so bad?
Warriors are not mostly just a horde unit in my eyes, and considering they can take out a Land Raider with Glancing hits, what do you have to complain about?
Not forgetting Immortals are now a Troops choice, and again, have more options to them. And they're tougher to take out.
Other older units have also had huge revamps, such as the Wraiths.
I think Pariahs are the only thing Necrons lost, but IIRC, there are at least a few pieces of wargear that fill the same niche, aren't there?
The change from WBB to RP is an interesting point from a Codex creators point of view. I can't help but fall back to the "It balances the list" excuss. Going back to Warriors, who are pretty much the best Anti-tank Troops choice in the entire game, wouldn't it be slightly OP to give them a 50/50 cxhance of coming back everytime they're "Destroyed?"
I agree Necrons didn't get nearly as screwed by their codex creep. I just wish it was more fair. 4th ed Space Marine codex specifically says that PotMS has been calculated into the points. Yet the points remained the same.
DeleteNecron troops taking down a flyer is just beautiful. Same with 10 Warriors slowly chipping away at a Land Raiders hull points. Agreed they are the best anti-vehicle troop in the game. Love that 6 auto-glance. Not a fan of them taking the 6 auto-wound away like they had in 3rd.
In 6th RP is better than WWB. Give a Necron Warrior unit FNP because of Warlord trait. Now you have 4+ Sv, RP and FNP. Sounds like a lot of dice rolling. Plenty of chances to keep the warrior standing.
One suggestion I have for codex creep to be fair is to give Eldar Falcons and Fire Prisms Spirit Stones without a point increase like they gave PotMS to Land Raiders.
I'm beginning to have a serious itch to comb through every codex and compare unit to unit to see if there is a pattern. Then again I still have my sanity. I think. Now where did I put it again? /looks around
I'm simply not convinced by any of this to be frank. Yes, a codex is bound to improve over time, if by nothing more than further options. Simply having an additional unit in each FOC slot gives you more options, thus making the codex better. What are you campaigning for? progressively worse books with less options? Why would any want that?
DeleteSure, codex creep is a real thing, and sure Space Marines get a lot of love, but to say Xenos get non is not true or fair. The new necron codex is 100% better than its former counterpart. How can the loss of the 'Phase out' Rule not be considered 100% gain with no drawback, like your examples of the Landraider. And whilst we're on the subject of Landraiders, they have been made progressively better as since 3rd edition they've sucked. GW get 35 quid a pop on these puppies so clearly they want to sell them. If people aren't bying them, its obviously because they're not all that good, thus improving them slightly should balance this out. Look at Tyrandis and the plethora of options thier new codex brought, then look at what 6th has done for them in terms of new rules such as smash, hammer of wrath ect. What did marine armies get out of 6th in terms of significant changes? Well, they can move and fire their boltguns 24" now! Wow. Mostly, they got downgraded. MSU MEQ mech lists dominated 5th and made it boring for everyone, thus GW have hindered these lists with the changes to transports and vehicle rules. Many other armies loose out to these changes? Not really, most Xenos are rocking about in open topped anyway.
so yes, Codex Creep happens, but to be fair to GW they try and even it out as much as possible. Look at the new Chaos dex, it looks balanced, competitive and full off new units and options. And guess what, nothing got downgraded in thier either. Right now, Dark Eldar, Chaos and Deamons are dominating the scene, with the power armoured dexes lagging behind somewhat. Its nice to see.
Finally, 125 points buys you 10 sisters whereas 60 points gets you 5 scouts. Considering the Scouts need to pay to upgrade to have a sgt, we can assume they're about the same cost. Sisters have BS4, which is kinda important for a shooting unit like Sisters or Scouts. Sisters can also always automatically rally through thier faith, which is nothing to be snuffed at, and have access to transport vehicles and two special weapons, and have a 6+ invun save. So no, they might not have all the fancy special rules, but as both are mid ranged shooting unit, Sisters actually do the job better and would be my choice every time. I don't see what point is trying to be made to be honest.
Rau, I like you. Also like your style.
DeleteIt would be ignorant if I said xenos never improved from codex to codex. 4th ed Eldar introduced the Autarch. A new HQ for those interested in something else. Necrons lose Pariahs but gain Lychguard and Deathmarks. Tyranids get Mawlocs and Trygons. The list can go on and on.
Great humour with Space Marine changes in 6th ed. Made me laugh.
Quick note about Flyer, Hover. The only troop transport that is not a Flyer, Hover is Night Scythe. Stormraven and Valkyrie/Vendetta are Flyer, Hover. Why not Night Scythe? If there is a Flyer that is a troop transport for Eldar or Tau it won't be Flyer, Hover. Just Flyer. My question is why does the Imperium get a Flyer, Hover, but not Necrons?
That is a fault of mine, the point I'm making not being clear enough.
Attempting to make my codex creep point more clearly. I wish codex creep was more fair. That xenos armies would receive benefits similar to Land Raider from edition to edition. Guess really comes down to Xenos getting the same amount of love as Space Marines.
Which of course would be ideal in a fair world. Since things will never be equal I'll have to rock myself to sleep in the corner mumbling about my preceived unfairness towards Eldar.
You're a good guy, Rau. Thanks for making me think.
Haha, thanks man. If only the misses thought I was as thought provoking as you I’m sure I’d get moaned at less, but then again her passion for little plastic models is someone less than ours, to be fair
DeleteI wouldn’t get too hung up on the hover rules. The nil damage and invasion beamers rules on the Nightsythe more than compensate for this. Also, it’s the only DEDICATED flying transport in the game, so the marine players could well get their panties all bunch up over that if they were that way inclined. Plus, the amount of dumb players I see pop into hover mode to get off an additional round of shooting at a ‘priority target’ which then only results in the flyer get smashed to bits the next turn, I’m happy they get that rule. You should be too, Eldar’s one saving grace is speed, so them dropping to hover mode means a good chance to drop them that turn. Finally, if Eldar/Dark Eldar/Tau get a flying transport, it also certainly will have hover or some other neat equivalent, otherwise you’ve got a flying coffin your chumps can never get out of. Put it this way, would you drop invasion beamers for hover type? If yes, I think its time to restart the medication.
Personally, I’m always more excited about a Xenos drop than a marine one. Marines will usually get an additional unit or two in a release, which is basically the EXACT same guys you have else where with an additional rule or a snazzy gun. Woop de do. Now I’m in agreement with you that Eldar are pretty shafted atm, but when that dex game out it was immense; addable USR through your exarchs, Wraithlords becoming MC’s, 4 shot scatter lasers (instead of D6) and an unprecedented (for the time) 4 troop choices! Hell, most armies STILL don’t get that many troop choices. Plus JETBIKES as troops. Scouts that rend on 5’s to hit with +2 cover saves, as a troop choice just when Troops had become essential. When it dropped, the Eldar codex was the bomb. Now there is no excuse to leave it, what, near ten years now without a new dex, but given the love they got last time I’m confident they’ll get some cool shit. Not just guardians with assault 3 Catapults or some other lame as MEQ equivalent of a ‘New’ unit.
Bottom line, Eldar suck. Second bottom line, they will get better. And off the bottom of the page, I think GW have done a GREAT job levelling the playing field with 6th. Marines took a kicking, everyone else got a boost (except Orks, poor poor Orks. Its amazing what a difference overwatch makes against a unit with a 6+ save). And if the Chaos and Dark Angels dexes are a sign for things to come in 6th, I’d say we all should be pretty excited for our respected Armies. Hell, I’m even keeping the faith (get it?) with my Sisters getting a new dex, and maybe, just maybe, some models that come in more than three components. And yes, I am counting the backpacks and bases in that total!
I could be hung up on the Flyer, Hover ability. I'll give you that.
DeleteIt would be nice if the Eldar codex creep was on par with other codexes. I just don't see it happening from previous editions codex creep. Agreed, Eldar having four different troop types is unparalleled.
Perhaps it's the meta in my area many players see the Eldar codex as a strong codex. Buddy of mine was playing Grey Knights and had a hard time against my Eldar. He was wondering why people say Eldar are a bad army.
Sounds like you and a buddy of mine, Suijin, would have plenty of stories to share about Sisters.
Its not that the Eldar codex is a 'bad' dex, its just that there are very few viable builds that means 1) its pretty dull to play with the same list time after time and 2) if you regularly play against the same players, is easy for them to tailor thier list against you as they know EXACTLY what you're taking.
DeleteAlways one for breaking the mould, I played a game with the Eldar last month whereby I just wanted to build as resiliant an army as I could manage. Avatar, 2 Wraithlords, full ten Wraithguard units, D cannons (gotta love the new Artilitery rules), min Jetbike units for objective grabbing and Pathfinders bumming around with thier 2+ cover saves in ruins. Despite my complete lack of faith in the list it went on to spank a Wolves list and a Necron foot list. This has restored a bit of my faith in the Eldar dex above having one viable build (i.e. Walker spam).
Any sisters player is already a freind of mine! Gotta love them Nuns with guns, never has a such a crap army had such good character!
List tailoring is something I don't run across a lot. Might be the meta of our area. Personally I'm surprised I don't see it happening. Or perhaps it's the players. Instead of tailoring their list against the same Necrons list I've used in many battles they learn which units to target.
DeleteLove D-cannons. Distortion technology at its finest. Well a shadow of what it used to be. You remind me I should pull out my D-cannons again. Walker spam aren't big around here.
Will have to turn my buddy onto this thread regarding Sisters. Nuns with guns are awesome. Completely agree, such a crap army never had such good character.
Yes there is codex creep, but this is more due to a way in which the game has progressed (new rules in each edition) and the fact that codexs are written by different authors! If they were all written by the same person I doubt we'd see the same level of creep.
ReplyDeleteOn the DA book, it seems pretty balanced, powerful yes, but with no auto win choices it's looking like 6th codex's will be balanced!
Completely agree, Dominic. Codexes have to adapt to the game. Regarding different authors I would imagine that all of them answer to someone who hands out the assignments. Much like like in anime. There are different artists that don't draw like each other. These's a guy who makes adjustments to frames so all the artists drawings look similar.
DeleteI'm curious if there's someone that does the point system side of the game. Or does the author meet with this person or a team.
Looking forward to seeing how 40k'ers will break Dark Angels codex.
"Looking forward to seeing how 40k'ers will break Dark Angels codex"
DeleteDon't think it'll be long before we see a lot of power builds out there, its the same for every new codex. What will be interesting will be seeing how many people adopt these 'power builds'. I've never had too much trouble playing against them, we see them all the time as net lists, but at least in the events I've been too I've only ever seen a couple of WAAC net lists. Yes you do seem some lists which are very powerful and optimised to win, but not really a WAAC net list.
That is one disappointing thing with Chaos Space Marines. Perhaps I just haven't been looking in the right place. I haven't seen a lot of power builds since the codex release. Perhaps it takes longer than I thought. Or people are playing power builds of other armies.
DeleteIn a way I'm expecting Dark Angels to behave the same as CSM. I could be underestimating peoples' love for SM.
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ReplyDeleteI don't really like your analysis of codex creep (which does exist kind of). Now I started 40k in 5th edition, so as far as personal experience I ain't got much. But what I do want to point out is second edition warhammer 40k to 6th edition(eldar and space marines in particular), stat wise eldar have stayed more or less the same and so have space marines. However, figures have had reduced point costs (5 grey knight terminators used to cost 375 points first or second edition?, tyranid gargoyles from forth to fifth edition got a six point decrease per model). GW wants people to buy more miniatures (of all armies, including xenos because they are in fact a business so they will never turn down our money). Now all throughout 5th lots of space marine chapters have been updated, 4 space marine chapters (and imperial guard) to 3 xenos. Space marines get more love because if you look at the armies on GW's website they take up like half of the entires( so it is obvious they get more updates). I would also argue that 4th edition codices should not be compared to sixth edition codices, but sadly enough they have too. But realize before 6th editions ends eldar, tau, and black templar should have sixth edition codices. The problem is GW updates armies slowly, so armies like eldar will have to wait a year or more to really be in sixth edition from the launch of sixth edition(cause they really are not there yet). I wish armies would all get new codices at the beginning of an edition, so balance or lack there of could easily be seen, but sadly enough capitalism prevents that ironically. GW is a company and so therefore must meet a certain revenue each quarter, if all codices came out at once there would be a massive amount of buying in the beginning but that would drop shortly after. So to round this over a year or so, codices are released over time, causing codex creep. Space marines are by no means OP. It is just before the necron release especially, almost all xenos were in 3rd and forth edition, and all space marines were in 5th or 4th. To me 5th edition was really a transfer point to sixth edition from 4th (getting flyers into the game and the new feel no pain and on). Both Chaos Space Marines and Dark Angels codices seem much more balanced to me, so I think codex creep is receding at the moment. Just remember GW does not favor one army over another, its just that half of the armies they produce are "Space Marines" so half of the time space marines will be updated before a xenos army. In conclusion remember the cheesy dark eldar of 5th edition (GW does not favor space marines, they are a business and want to make money off of all there products, but they do this slowly over time).
ReplyDeletePokeTeehee, I like your points and completely agree that Space Marines are the majourity of the armies they sell.
ReplyDeleteI believe GW favours Space Marines. Storm Talon in the latest FAQ had a point reduction and received Hover. No Xenos Flyer will ever receive the same treatment.
I deeply respect your comment of not liking my analysis of Codex Creep. Hope you don't mind me asking. How do you analyze Codex Creep?
Sorry for the RIDICULOUSLY long post.
DeleteOk first if you could explain the Storm Talon changes as I don't have the Death from the skies book (I believe there is something fish with GW there, maybe the storm talon is not selling well).
Now first off I have heard the term codex creep a lot but do not know a formal definition (if you see it differently than I define just shoot me a comment), so for my explanation codex creep is the newest codex out in stores is slightly better than the one released before it (Grey knights are a great example of a codex released that is far stronger than say Blood Angels or Tyranids). I can not speak about how 3rd and 4th edition codex have changed, but as fifth edition progressed the codices increased in potential. Now before I say the codices got more powerful, we have to understand why. Necrons for example has a very new codex but it is by no means overpowered (although it does have great flyers), looking at the necron warriors they took a 5 point decrease, but also heavy nerfs (weaker we'll be back and save). Now lets look at the Grey knights (codex before necrons)troops got about 5 point decrease from there counterparts (but they no longer got the shrouding rule or strength 6 on all grey knights in the army and other cool things), but they all do have force-weapons now which more than makes up for it even in 6th edition. Before anyone says this is space marine bias, Grey knight are not a fifth edition codex (they are really a sixth edition codex, which makes more sense with there rules) So figures have been getting cheaper but taking nerfs (mostly) and sometimes buffs(on occasion). This is because GW wants an average game to have more and more figures, so they make more money. This also means armies become more shooty because there are more figures on the board (and almost all figures in the game have a gun). If Necrons still used 3rd edition rules they would have less shoots than other armies and would be out gunned (I watched it happen with my friend long ago). Now force weapons help make the Grey Knights able to fight other fighty armies with more figures (blood angels). Say Grey Knights were still in third edition rules, strength 6 meant you wound on 2's, but when your opponent is taking 3+ saves, wounding on 2's is worse than wounding on 4's no armor save allowed.As stated GW wants more figures on the table so force weapons, not strength 6,are a better choice all around. From all this one could speculate that GW wants there armies to function properly with more figures...
NOW I can say codex creep is simply a codex is made at a point in time and is either too powerful or underpowered because of how GW updating of 40k. Grey Knight were too powerful because they were made under the context of 6th edition, and now most of there unbalanced nature has gone down. Necrons took a massive buff in 6th being able to use troops to take out a land raider turn one or two, definitively (when they are in rapid fire range), plus they can TRY to take out flyers to with there massive number of shots and with a stalker may be able to take it out in a turn if need be. But look at eldar from 4th edition (they have no flyers and it is hard to deal with flyers easily (you can but at big costs), also eldar are WAY TOO expensive point wise S3 T3 4+ most of the time (this is not durable enough to keep a unit of fire dragons alive in 6th edition). And this is an example of how GW is making older armies harder to use. Final question, why does GW keep codex creeping? Look, eldar will get an update soon and thus be able to compete in 6th edition with more diversity than lists now. But for now they are left in the dust, why would GW hurt there (I believe)largest product line out side of space marines so much. It is because of how stockholders work (I think), basically GW is on par with Google and other big names when it comes to stock (I think), and they have power in the British stock market. So to keep people in the stock exchange happy they have quarterly revenue reports or something, to see how well GW is doing. Now if GW released 6th edition with all codices that have new rules for this edition THEY WOULD MAKE SO MUCH MONEY FOR THE FIRST SEVERAL months, but that would die down. There stock prices would then fall until they released 7th edition. Instead of this GW releases armies over years (so revenue is more constant), but what happens to a codex meant for 5th edition and is released one month before sixth edition (it is useless). In this case GW makes the codex for 6th edition, necrons, grey knights, so forth. Now the major difference between sixth edition and forth edition is flyers (and if you notice 6th edition started with the release of the second 5th edition army, vendetta anyone and every book after that has a flyer or kind of). With flyers the game changes lots as far as army balance (now you have to be able to deal with them somehow). So I would say the crazy amount of codex creep in 5th edition, is growing pains (like children grow so does our hobby) to get armies ready for 6th. Codex Creep is because GW wants to expand the game, but not have true balance in any one edition so that the game can grow into the next edition. This explains the overpowered armies of fifth edition as well as why the newest armies have been balanced (they are made for 6th edition straight outright, while 4th and 5th edition codices are a little odd in good and bad ways).
DeletePokeTeeHee, you're a bit all over the place. I believe I was able to follow along. We have the same definition of Codex Creep.
DeleteI appreciate your "I think" comments instead of making that a black and white statement. Respect.
Regarding balance. Why doesn't GW want true balance? I understand shingling one edition to another. You can do that with balance. Why not true balance?
Thanks for getting through my ramble (codex creep kind of stems from each of the ideas I have state, basically nothing is simple)
ReplyDeleteTrue balance means everything needs to be released or updated at the same time more or less(which I would love GW to do). So GW totally could take a stab at true balanced armies (or about as close as you could get), but it would mean that they would have to update each codex when the new main rule book comes out(balance points from older codices and make all the units fairer). Now this is not impossible for GW to do, but it is not cost effective. Think GW releases 6th edition, feel no pain changed so all units that use that special rule would get a point decrease for it (do this with every rule to every unit in the game). That is a lot of time spent NOT MAKING new units or a new codex (GW does not profit from this kind of balance). The other type of balance is releasing new codices with a new rule book, as I have state above this does not work perfectly either. But yes your point is total valid, Warhammer 40k is supposed to be competitive, and therefore have some amount of balance. And looking from 5th edition releases to the newest 6th edition releases, we see 6th edition codices are much more balanced and almost every unit has perks. So GW may be moving to try to balance there armies after all the craziness of 5th edition. Now there will be more balance and hopeful this will continue. But I do not have enough experience to tell you if the balance is a temporary or a more permanent feature.
Also what are the Stormtalon changes, just would like to know.
We are of the same mind set, PokeTeeHee. I like your style.
DeleteSince third edition I've told people that I believe GW should release all codexes with 3rd ed rules. A point you mentioned, something I've echoed, if GW releases all the codexes at once they would have a huge revenue stream then nothing, compared to the initial hit, for a long time.
I don't believe Feel No Pain units should have a point increase. Feel No Pain became better. Instead of power weapons and AP 2 or 1. It's flat instant death. The little bit of balance would be 4+ to 5+. Which upsets me a little because I do like my Dark Eldar. I'll bite the bullet and deal with it.
What I don't understand is the Dark Angels Scouts dropping in points and getting more abilities in this edition. I promise you Eldar Guardians won't decrease in points and certainly won't gain more special rules when their codex comes out.
Regarding Stormtalon. Points decreased by 20 in the FAQ. That will never happen to a Xenos model. Went from Flyer to Flyer, Hover. I'm certain now more than ever that Xenos will never have a Flyer, Hover. Yes it lost deep strike but all other flyers, Imperium and Xenos, lost that special rule.
Dark Eldar Razorwing loses a special rule and doesn't decrease in points. Night Scythe and Doom Scythe lose the same rule and don't decrease in points. Valkyrie same. Storm Raven same. Yet for some specific model it loses points, gains a special rule and can't deep strike like all the other flyers. Favouritism Space Marines.
Decrease not increase.
DeleteDoes that mean Space Marines have a 110 point flyer? and hover (as it had something like that in the white dwarf) makes sense as I can see it doing that (but honestly that does not give much advantage in the game if any). If the flyer is 110 points that makes it quite good although Dark angels have a flyer for 180 that does quite a bit more, but still that is too good for 110 (the math is jetfighters missles, one hull point and, a special rule make up 50 points which is not to bad actually). Also, Eldar WILL (most likely) get vector dancer making them the most agile flyers in the game. The point reduction stumps me (it probably means that not enough stormtalons are being sold so point decrease means more sales). And remember stormtalons do only have 2 hull points.
DeleteAlso, feel no pain is relative sure you do get it bar instant death, but so many characters cause instant death and powerfists and thunderhammers are strength 8 so no feel no pain (for t4 or lower) against most all weapons that are AP 2 or AP 1. Again it is very circumstantial (tyranid monster would love this).
DeleteAlso, the rule lost is deep striking (which no flyer was supposed to really have), so don't make it out to be a BIG deal, plus the Stormtalon is in the same boat no prejudice with that (but 110 is a little low, and if that happened, the vendettas should have gotten a point increase honest, from what I have heard).
DeleteMy final aside is, you are a little butt hurt that eldar aren't doing well, but I am pretty confident that eldar guardians will go down in points (no special rules), but they will probably be more like 6 points in the new codex, and on top of that all other eldar units will drop in points (if you did not know this chaos are something like 9 points for ws4 bs4 s3 t3 w1 I2 A1 Save5++ (nurgle plaguebearer) with the shrouded special rule, guardians will easily be much cheaper than that).
DeleteSorry ws and bs are 3 s and t are 4 my bad, just noticed.
DeletePokeTeeHee, great points. Really like your style.
DeleteYeah, recent FAQ decreased points and gave it hover. I would like to think it's because the model wasn't selling but I feel that infringes upon conspiracy theory type stuff.
40k buddy of mine, which I'm beginning maybe you, also mentioned that Eldar flyer will most likely get Vector Dancer since that is the only special rule not used presently. Wouldn't be surprised if an imperial codex released after Eldar codex also got it.
Agreed losing a special rule isn't that big of deal. Perhaps a point reduction for loss of the ability. Speaking of which. Night Scythe gaining invasion beamer on a FAQ should increase point cost. Completely agreed Vendetta should have point increase.
You hit it dead on. I am butt-hurt over Eldar. For three editions, 3rd to 5th, Space Marines was the first codex released. I've sworn to people that if Eldar is the first codex released in an edition I will go back to playing them seriously. A lot of people are having success with Eldar, even footdar. Reece from Frontline Gaming being one of them. I don't want Eldar to place or take tournaments. I don't Eldar represented in numbers in the greater tournament scene. I want Eldar to receive the same treatment as Space Marines. I know that is a pipe dream. Guess it speaks to the skill of the dealer on the corner.
I really like conversing with you, PokeTeeHee. Like the implication of your name as well.
As far as, Space Marines are concerned they will probably always be the first codex out (with 6th kinda changing that up with "chaos" space marines). But I mean Space Marines of any chapter are kind of the poster child of 40k. And until 3rd edition Space Marines were more or less one or two books going over all the chapter rules (now like I have said, they are half of what GW sells). And with good reason they are cool. But I think you are not looking at the big picture (Ultramarines kinda suck as a codex, not as good as space wolves, dark eldar, or blood angels).It is cheaper to use the dark angels codex in some respects. Don't get me wrong they are not terrible (you just seem to make them out to be a little too big). On the Eldar note, they will be handled properly (at least as far as timing in GW's grand scheme), because the Eldar codex (from what I have heard) should be coming out in Octoberish (rumour). 7th edition should not be until like 2016 or later, so that is at least two solid years of eldar begin pretty much balanced with anything else (and this assumes that codices of 2015 will start be become more unbalanced and those are the only armies you fight, which may or may not happen). This also assumes that 7th edition will also unbalance everything (so worse case eldar will be competitive for two years, alright after). Remember that eldar have a 7 year old codex, so they will get a much better one than they have now. However like I have said the units (at least most of them will be slightly nerfed, but at a big decreased points value, GW wants you to buy more minatures).
DeleteNow these special rules that Night Scythe and Stormtalon "gained" were not actually gained. The white dwarf and necron codex had rules like these in 5th edition speak, so the were not gained but revised rules. Still the point decrease is a little weird on the Stormtalon.
And thanks about the name.
Also I have enjoyed this conversation, although I find you to be a little overcritical of GW (but they do hold themselves to a high standard, so critic away).
DeleteI do believe there is a drive for GW to sell models. Just don't believe that drive is as strong as people say it is. Example Stormtalon. One theory is that Stormtalon wasn't selling or well represented on tournament table so GW dropped the point cost to sell the model. Or perhaps you're onto something, I'm seeing the big picture and focusing on the small detail of being butt-hurt about Eldar.
DeleteCompletely agree GW should focus on Space Marines. Of the 16 armies 6 are Space Marines. More than any other faction. I just don't know why GW can't pour the same attention into Eldar, Tau or Tyranids. I accept things will never be equal in the world. Seems to me GW does a great job balancing Imperium armies not Xenos.
Yeah the addtion to Night Scythes was in 5th. Still think it should've had a price increase. Would like to hear why GW reduced Stormtalon's point cost.
You're welcome.
Now I can talk about Tyranids as I play them (along with Eldar and I am starting to collect Dark Angels), but they are really not as bad as people say. I have wiped my friends Necrons every time I play with Tyranids (literal slaghter, end of game he has 200 points to at least 1000 of mine). However tyranids do suffer against Dark Eldar and Space Wolves (long fang spam). One thing I will admit is Genestealers are now more or less useless, as the meta is more infantry heavy and they can not assault the turn they arrive from reserve. But tyranids also have one of the only units in the game that can assault the turn they arrive from reserve (Ymarl Genestealers). Plus, tyranids can deal with flyers as flying hive tyrants are great. Point is GW is dealing with Eldar, Tau, and even Tyranids (as they get an update in the next white dwarf, RUMOR). Tau codex should come out in a few months (Mayish, RUMOR) and Eldar in (RUMOR) Octoberish (and they will be just as competitive as Space Marines, at least that is the over all trend of 5th to 6th). GW is not neglecting Xenos (they are just take there sweet SWEET time with it!!!, back to the quarterly revenue thing, tau second quarter, Eldar third maybe fourth). Again I don't think it is GW favoring Space Marines (remember Dark Eldar used to be so OP and still are powerful now).
DeleteWe are of the same mindset that odd codexes can do destroy newer codexes. That speaks to the skill of the player. Which they should be rewarded for.
DeleteI also agree GW is dealing with Eldar. I just hope Eldar get the same treatment as Space Marines. Just can't but to think since Space Marine isn't out yet that when it is released it will over shadow previous codexes because of the creep. They are taking their sweet time with some codexes.
People who regularly use Dark Eldar talk about it being a glass cannon. They are like Eldar. Not a forgiving army like Space Marines. Agreed they can't be played the same. I believe Stormtalon is the first and only model to be reduced in points and gain special abilities in a FAQ. If that doesn't some tint of favouritism I would like to know why it happened.
I really like your style, PokeTeeHee. Great conversing with you!
You are right with the stormtalon (it is the first?), and that is the only reason I find something fishy going on (might mean space marines will not be out for some time). I was going to try to say that Space Marines won't be overpowered but it is hard to tell when the Space Marine codex will come out (GW seems sporadic in releases looking at the codex releases of the past). Only thing I can really say is Eldar should be a good codex for a while at least part through 7th (as long as there are no new surprise additions to the game like flyers). Only time will tell.
DeleteOh yeah and thanks for the compliment (but I do have some feeling that Tyranids are the bane of Necron existence or something, because even when I played his Necrons I lost to Tyranids, not by nearly as much though).
DeletePoint reduction in a FAQ? Yeah. I hope Eldar get a majour buff at least on par with the following Space Marine codex.
DeleteFunny. I've never had problem with Tyranids. Except for not remembering Move Through Cover. The two armies at FOYCON did well. Would've been more successful had I remembered my thinking cap.
Just out of curiosity what kind of Necron army do you run? Maybe I can give my friend some tips. If you want to know my nid list it is basically(two hive tyrants (wings), two ymgarl stealers (10 each), two hormaguant broods (about 26 per ), one termagant (20),a tervigon, and two gargoyle broods (20)) at 2000 points. Or sometimes I take out one tyrant and the Tervigon for 2 Trygons (but the army usually is kinda like that mostly because I need to get more figures to try more variety).
DeleteAgainst Tyranids I run:
DeleteNecron Overloard w/ Gaunlet of Fire
Orikan
5x Cryptek w/Eldrich Lances
1x 5 Necron Warriors
2x 5 Immortals with Night Scyths
2x 6 Canoptek Wraiths 4x Whip Coils
1x 10 Canoptek Scarabs
2x 3 Canoptek Spyders
Anyone else:
Imotekh
Orikan
3 Crypteks. 2 Transmorgrification with tremorstaves and 1 Eternity with chronometron
2x 5 Necron Warriors
C'tan writhing worldscape and swarm of spirit dust
2x 6 Canoptek Wraiths 6x whip coils
10 Canoptek Scarabs
2x 3 Canoptek Spyders
Since Difficult terrain only affects a handful of units I put in the Crypteks for that 36 8 2 Assault 1. To punch through the bigwigs armour.
Ok,interesting list I think my friend has all the figures to try this out (minus one flyer which we could easily proxy). Thanks for the help I look forward to facing that kind of list. Sorry, but how do you run the list (Canoptek Wraiths probably go up and assault, as the spyders increase the tar pit known as Scarabs, and immortals take objectives further in), just so I get where this is going (lists are quite useless if you don't use them properly, and such).
DeleteThe plan is actually placing my Objectives in my back field. Where troops are either nearby or on them at the beginning of the game. If Objective can be placed in area terrain that is done. Then troops on them to take advantage of going to ground 2+ to cover saves in area terrain.
DeleteSpyders and Scarabs do exactly as you say. If they don't tarpit Scarabs become too large of a squad to handle and can tear anything apart that has Tougness 6 or less. The squad mob is used to pull enemy troops off Objectives. Spyders just create more Scarabs. Wraiths are the distraction, a rather effective distraction.
Great point about wanting to know how the units work. Netlists are easier to understand when you have an idea behind them.
Ok now the HQ choices do what (as in do you put them in units or they do their own thing)? And the flyers do they keep the troops safe inside them or are the troops on objective at the beginning of the game and the flyers just kill things? After those are answered I think I get the list.
DeleteAnd maybe I will pop on this blog after the new Eldar codex comes out(see your opinion and maybe have another discussion about 40k).
Necron Lord unlocks the Crypteks to take down those pesky Trygons and other T6 W6 Sv3 truly monstrous creatures. Flyers are because I had some left over points. Orikan is my Necron Golden Boy. He's my warlord and in every Necron I play. Yeah his Temporal Snares aren't useful against Tyranids. Found his Lord of Time more than useful. Troops are either in Reserve to not get shot off the board or in area terrain with an objective.
DeleteFeel free to share my normal Necron list with you buddy.
http://h2lat40k.blogspot.com/2012/08/6th-ed-necron-1850-army-list-v12.html0
Has my non-Tyranid list and tactics behind them.
I look forward to chatting with you about the new Eldar codex. Whenever it comes out. You're a paragon of behaviour when it comes to different mindsets sharing opinions online. That is practically unseen in this day of online-anonymity
Thanks for all the help, and yeah chatting about Eldar will be interesting. Chat with you later.
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